William J. Wolf       Taped conversation   27-Sep-1988   Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe
"Listen, this is what I promised, what I promised to the investigation judge." Richard Glazar
Additional information concerning Phoenix, Arizona attorney William Wolf, the individual who tape-recorded the telephone conversation below, can be found in the Ukrainian Weekly articles of 10-Jul-1988 and 23-Oct-1988 written by William Wolf, and in a Ukrainian Weekly article of 11-Dec-1988 written about William Wolf.

Below, Treblinka surviver Richard Glazar acknowledges having spoken to Demjanjuk prosecutors on several occasions.  He reports having been shown the Trawniki ID card, and in confirmation of this assertion he accurately describes details of the card.  His words reveal that the testimony that he would be able to give concerning John Demjanjuk would be exculpatory.  He acknowledges having promised Israeli prosecutors to withhold his exculpatory evidence from the Demjanjuk defense.  Finally, he recognizes, and accepts, that an innocent man may be executed as a result of his Glazar's withholding of that exculpatory testimony.

A related question is who was responsible for the destruction of reports concerning interviews that Glazar granted the US Office of Special Investigations (OSI).

William Wolf

Phoenix attorney
William Wolf
                   Richard Glazar

Treblinka survivor
Richard Glazar

Taped telephone conversation between Attorney William Wolf of Phoenix, Arizona and Mr. Richard Glazer of Switzerland on September 27, 1988.

R.G.  As far as, as long as the trial is not closed, I don't give any information.  I am sorry.

W.W. The reason for my call sir, is that it is my understanding that new witnesses can be called to testified at the appeal.

R.G.   Yeah.  Yeah.

W.W.  And I have written extensively about this.  I don't know if you have read anything that I have written.  Have you read anything that I have written?

R.G.   No.  What do you mean, if I had written something?

W.W.   No.  Sir, I had written something.

R.G.   If I had read something?

W.W.  Yes, I was wondering if you had read any of the articles I have written.

R.G.   No.  No.  No.

W.W.  Sir, would it be possible for me to come to Switzerland to speak to you about this?

R.G.   Umm.  I am sorry.  No.

W.W.  All I would like to do sir is to be able to show you what I have written.

R.G.  One thing I tell you one thing.  I promised.  I promised to the General Attorney who investigated, the Israeli attorney not to talk to anybody as long as the trial is not closed.

W.W.  But you see, you know, if you are an important witness I think it is critical that you, if you have something to add to this trial that you come forward at this point before it is too late and the man is hung.

R.G.  I told anything I knew to the investigation judge, Israeli investigation judge.

W.W.  I understand that but the defense attorneys would also like to have the opportunity to present your testimony if possible.  Sir, all I would like to do is to stop in Switzerland and speak to you, very calmly, at your convenience, and discuss this matter with you.

R.G.   Ahh.

W.W.   As a matter of fact I am on my way to Israel next week.

R.G.   Not as long as the trial is not closed.

W.W.   Well but the thing is

R.G.   No, I am sorry

W.W.   What I am saying sir is that

R.G.  Any information to anybody.  You know, I must tell you one thing. I have been interviewed several times, many times, many times and I must tell you, I have been always disappointed what the people then wrote afterwards.

W.W.  Sir, I wouldn't want you to judge me based upon what other people have done.

R.G.   But I have bad, I must tell you I have very bad experiences.

W.W.   Sir, I don't plan on writing anything.

R.G.  Any ah, another thing.  I am now, I am working on my own experiences, my own memoirs so you will understand that I am not ready to, at the present time to give any information to anybody.

W.W.   Well but sir, a man's life is hanging in the balance here.

R.G.   Yeah

W.W.   And I just think

R.G.   It's useless you know

W.W.   Why do you say its useless.

R.G.  I don't, Listen, its not you.  If anyone asks me now to, to, to, for me to tell him about Treblinka, I would tell him no, now.

W.W.  Let me ask you just one thing sir, can you just tell me if John Demjanjuk is in fact this Ivan of Treblinka.

R.G.   Umm, I can't tell you, I can't tell you.

W.W.   Without telling me the answer.

R.G.  Listen, Listen, Listen.  I saw the identity card of John Demjanjuk, the so-called S.S. identity card, his S.S. identity card.  There on the identity card there are two places mentioned, Okszow and Sobibor but not Treblinka.  Sobibor was another extermination camp not far away from Treblinka

W.W. Yes, but sir, however that identity card has been proven

R.G.  Listen, maybe, maybe, but maybe, you know, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe you know, he didn't murder in Treblinka he murdered in Sobibor maybe, maybe.

W.W.   But basically what you are saying then, is that to your knowledge he was not at Treblinka?

R.G.   I can't tell you.  I can't tell you.

W.W.   Do you have any opinion as to whether or not.

R.G.   I saw many, many of the Ukrainian guards at Treblinka

W.W.   I am not asking bout that

R.G.   At thattime, they were as young as I was

W.W.  I am asking about this particular person, John Demjanjuk, was he at Treblinka, in your eyesight, to your knowledge?

R.G.   I am sorry.  I am sorry.  I can't tell you anymore.  I am sorry.

W.W.  You will not permit me to come to visit you sir.  I would really like to do so

R.G.  Yes I know, I am sorry.

W.W.  Perhaps you could think about it and I could call you in a couple of days.

R.G.  No, No, sorry, certainly not.

W.W.   O.K.  I am sorry that we cannot get together sir.

R.G.  As long as the trial is not closed I am not ready to tell anything to anybody sorry.

W.W.  Mr. Glazer I do appreciate your taking this time to talk to to me.  My name is William Wolf.  May I give you my address and phone number.

R.G.   Yes.

W.W.   My name is William Wolf

R.G.   How do you spell it.

W.W.   W-O-L-F

R.G.   William Wolf

W.W.   William Wolf, and I will give you my address and phone number.

R.G.   O.K.  William Wolf

W.W.   My phone number in the United States is area code 602

R.G.   602

W.W.   279

R.G.   279

W.W.  1914

R.G.  1914

W.W.  And my address

R.G.  Yes

W.W.  6516

R.G.  6516

W.W.  North 7th Street

R.G.  North 7th

W.W.  Street

R.G.  7th Street

W.W.  That's in Phoenix, P-H-O-E-N-I-X

R.G.  Phoenix, Phoenix

W.W.  Phoenix, Arizona

R.G.  P-H-O-, P-H-O-E

W.W.  N-I-X, Arizona

R.G.  Arizona, yeah, yeah.

W.W.  And the code is 85014

R.G.  85

W.W.  014

R.G.  014, that is the area code.

W.W.  Please understand I am a Jewish attorney, I am very much committed to the people, and to the State of Israel, I have been to Israel 4 times in my life, I am now 42 years old.

R.G.  Listen, Listen, Mr. Wolf, maybe if the trial is closed I will contact you.

W.W.   But then it will be too late and the man will be hung.

R.G.   Yeah, I am sorry.

W.W.   If you change your mind you know how to get a hold of me.

R.G.  Listen, this is what I promised, what I promised to the investigation judge

W.W.   From the State of Israel

R.G.   Yes

W.W.   Do you remember his name.

R.G.   O.k.  Good luck to you.  Bye, Bye.