PRYTULAK: Hello. [00:04]
KOZAK: Ah, yes, Mr Prytulak, please. [00:05]
PRYTULAK: Speaking. [00:06]
KOZAK: My name is Sandy Kozak. I guess you had left a phone message for Mr Chamberlin? [00:10]
PRYTULAK: Oh, yes. Uh huh. [00:13]
KOZAK: In response to your file with us? [00:13]
PRYTULAK: That's right. [00:13]
KOZAK: Can I help you with some questions, or answers? [00:16]
PRYTULAK: OK, I was interested in who the investigator was for the Investigator's Report of 30 June. [00:25]
KOZAK: OK. That information isn't being put on the reports at this time because it's not relevant. [00:36]
PRYTULAK: In the first report that I received, the investigator's name was on it, with the invitation to communicate with the investigator. [00:44]
KOZAK: It's all done through, uh ... most of those Section 13 reports are investigated by a team. So, it's done through Mr Chamberlin as a contract. [00:55]
PRYTULAK: Oh, so it was left to him to decide who the investigators would be, you're saying, and so on. [01:01]
KOZAK: There's a group of investigators [unintelligible] that have a knowledge of your complaint, but there's several of us that basically train just in this area, and all of our investigation formats have changed, and it's not relevant as to the particular investigator. Certainly, if you have questions, such as me calling you back today, to answer them for you, then that's done that way. [01:28]
PRYTULAK: Now, who determines relevance, because suppose that I said to you that it's relevant to my purposes? [01:31]
KOZAK: Which is what? [01:33]
PRYTULAK: Well, I would like to, for example, contact the investigator, and verify what was placed, what documents were placed, in front of the investigator, because I think that none of my documents are being considered, none of them are appearing ... [01:41]
KOZAK: Any information that you forwarded in your complaint, the investigator has access to. [01:48]
PRYTULAK: Yeah, then the second question is, why did the investigator totally ignore all my submissions, and not represent them in any way in the Investigator's Report? [01:57]
KOZAK: In, as what, in particular? Unfortunately I don't have the file in front of me, because, as you probably are aware it's gone to Commission already, so I do not have that ... I'm not able to go access that file right at this time. Depending on what questions you ask I may be able to have access to it in the next couple of days, I'll be able to get it from ... [02:13]
PRYTULAK: So I have, for example, there are four key documents that I submitted which contain my defense. One was ... I can itemize them for you. Letters to Mary Gusella of 20 February 2004. Another letter to Mary Gusella 06 May 2004. Another letter to Mary Gusella 27 May 2004. [02:40]
KOZAK: The investigator would have had all of these letters. [02:44]
PRYTULAK: OK. Well OK, but not a word, there's no mention of them, there's no reference to them ... [02:49]
KOZAK: It would depend on how ... I mean, in your complaint form it would state the allegations in the complaint form that was investigated. All the investigator can do is, and I said I apologize I don't have it before me at this point, can only look at those allegations in the form. [03:09]
PRYTULAK: Yeah, but these are my defences to the allegations. [03:11]
KOZAK: Depending on what information with that Report, within the new format, all they do is put forth the information that would be brought into a tribunal by the complainant so the information that was there ... [03:25]
PRYTULAK: But not my information, only the complainant's information? [03:28]
KOZAK: Your information would have been looked at as well, and for that complaint, the recommendation was to go to tribunal, so that both sides can represent themselves with regards to that information. [03:36]
PRYTULAK: But there's a lot of legal precedent that says that my information, or my submissions, cannot be totally ignored, and they are being totally ignored. That is, the investigator never said Prytulak alleges this and this, but I don't agree with it, or it isn't credible. He didn't refute it, he didn't discount it, he simply totally ignored it as if it didn't exist, as if I had not submitted anything. He could have at least said, "He submitted several submissions, but they were of low quality, and we decided that they weren't worth looking at," at least then he would have acknowledged them, but no, it's as if I don't exist. Now surely that is not following any kind of legal procedure. It's not justice. [04:16]
KOZAK: Well, and I guess too, if you, in your rebuttal, or in your submissions � I mean certainly here but I'm trying to find pull up your reports here � if you put that in, that would be before the Commission as well and they would have looked at that. So, all that would be before the Commission. [04:34]
PRYTULAK: Well, I want to know why it wasn't in the Investigator's Report. It's not in the Investigator's Report. If I'm being railroaded, then I can expect to be railroaded ... [04:41]
KOZAK: I reviewed that report, unfortunately I guess that I don't have it before me ... [04:44]
PRYTULAK: It just repeated the allegations, but no defense on my part at all. [04:48]
KOZAK: ... and you have how the reports are done for the section 13s, and provided the information that was required, so I am trying to pull it up here, but all the necessary information would have been put before the Commission, and if anything that you said that you don't agree with, I mean, you have the right to submit it in your submissions with regards to the Report. [05:08]
PRYTULAK: Well, nothing is paid attention to. My submissions just vanish. Nobody acknowledges them. Nobody acknowledges any of my arguments. The decision ... [05:16]
KOZAK: Did you submit a submission to the Report? [05:18]
PRYTULAK: Of course. [05:18]
KOZAK: OK, then it went before the Commission with it. [05:22]
PRYTULAK: Which Commission? Do you mean the latest Committee which decided to send the matter to the Tribunal? [05:26]
KOZAK: The Canadian Human Rights Commission ... [05:26]
PRYTULAK: Right, right. [05:26]
KOZAK: ... that hears the reports, and makes their findings. [05:30]
PRYTULAK: Well, I don't know what you mean by the Commission ... [05:33]
KOZAK: All the Investigation Report is is a recommendation. It takes the information and puts a recommendation [05:38]
PRYTULAK: But it doesn't take my information [05:38]
KOZAK: and it goes [05:41]
PRYTULAK: My information wasn't there anywhere. It took the Canadian Jewish Congress information. [05:43]
KOZAK: It would look at both. It would look at the information [05:45]
PRYTULAK: Well how do I know that it looked at it when it's not in the Investigator's Report? [05:45]
KOZAK: Because that is what the investigators [05:47]
PRYTULAK: Oh, you expect me to trust you. Well, why wasn't it mentioned? Why weren't any of my arguments mentioned? [05:53]
KOZAK: Well, you'll have to, you know ... [05:56]
PRYTULAK: I'll have to what? I just want to know ... [05:57]
KOZAK: Did you put that in a submission? I'm not going to argue ... [06:00]
PRYTULAK: I put everything in a submission. [06:01]
KOZAK: Then it would be before the Commission [06:02]
PRYTULAK: Oh, thank you. So, I'm supposed to trust that. Why wasn't it in the ... I would trust you if it was in the Investigator's Report. [06:08]
KOZAK: A submission doesn't get put into the report, [06:09]
PRYTULAK: I don't want it, I just want my arguments to be acknowledged, none of my arguments were acknowledged. [06:15]
KOZAK: Mr Prytulak, you're not listening to me. [06:16]
PRYTULAK: Yes, I am. You're not listening to me. [06:16]
KOZAK: Yes, I am listening to ... [06:19]
PRYTULAK: No you're not. [06:19]
KOZAK: I'm trying to respond to your questions. [06:20]
PRYTULAK: I'm being ignored, all my ... [06:21]
KOZAK: Unfortunately, that's how you feel ... [06:23]
PRYTULAK: The word is called "spoliation." My submissions are being destroyed, or suppressed. That's what's happening. [06:31]
KOZAK: Unfortunately you feel that way, the information was ... [06:32]
PRYTULAK: Now I want to know ... let's narrow our discussion. Do I have the right to know the investigator or not? Because usually the investigator signs the report. There's no signature. I want to know if anybody is going to take credit for this report. Who wrote the report? Can you tell me that? [06:47]
KOZAK: I don't know if we're releasing that information. [06:50]
PRYTULAK: You're saying you don't have to release it, and I don't have to know? Is that your position? [06:55]
KOZAK: Pardon me? [06:55]
PRYTULAK: That's your position. You don't have to release it, and you're not going to tell me if you don't feel like it. Is that your position? [07:00]
KOZAK: I told you what my position was. [07:03]
PRYTULAK: Repeat it, please. [07:03]
KOZAK: and if you would like to keep arguing with me [07:05]
PRYTULAK: No, repeat your position. You are not going to tell me. [07:07]
KOZAK: I'll have Mr Chamberlin call you back. I thought I could help you ... [07:10]
PRYTULAK: Why don't you just tell me � are you going to tell me the name of the investigator or not? [07:14]
KOZAK: No, I'm not. [07:14]
PRYTULAK: All right. And you think I don't have a right to know? [07:17]
KOZAK: I'm saying I don't know at this point if we're releasing that information to you. [07:21]
PRYTULAK: So, you have a right to hold it back? Hannya Rizk was the first investigator, in the First Investigator's Report. Why did you release that information? [07:30]
KOZAK: We've changed our format since then. I explained that to you, Mr Prytulak. [07:33]
PRYTULAK: I'm sorry, you've changed your what? [07:34]
KOZAK: We've changed our investigative format, our report formats. [07:37]
PRYTULAK: For everybody, so now nobody gets to know the investigator? Is that true? [07:42]
KOZAK: Yes. [07:42]
PRYTULAK: I didn't know that. Has that been announced, or justified anywhere? Where can I read this? [07:47]
KOZAK: I don't know. It could be online. I haven't looked. [07:49]
PRYTULAK: All right. So, what I understand from you now is that nobody now knows the investigator in the Investigator's Report. Is that what you're telling me? [08:01]
KOZAK: Yes, they're not ... the reports aren't signed by the investigators. [08:02]
PRYTULAK: And you've changed that recently? [08:05]
KOZAK: It was in the last six months. [08:08]
PRYTULAK: I see. And that wasn't announced anywhere? [08:10]
KOZAK: I don't know if it was or not. That's not my department. [08:12]
PRYTULAK: Very interesting. OK. And so you can't answer any of my questions. My questions are, Who was the investigator? [08:21]
KOZAK: I did answer that, I said that ... [08:22]
PRYTULAK: You said you won't tell me. [08:23]
KOZAK: That's right, I don't know what our policy is. [08:27]
PRYTULAK: And the other question which you can't answer is, Why is all my information excluded from the Investigator's Report? Why is the investigator not investigating? [08:33]
KOZAK: I ... [08:33]
PRYTULAK: You don't know that either. [08:33]
KOZAK: investigated fully [...]
PRYTULAK: You believe that, but you haven't even read the report. [08:39]
KOZAK: Yes, I told you that I did read the report. [08:41]
PRYTULAK: You did? And did you read all my submissions to find out if they were included in the report? [08:43]
KOZAK: I read all the information that was put forth. [08:46]
PRYTULAK: You did not read my submissions, you don't know what you're talking about. I'm telling you that all my information is excluded. And you're telling me what? Oh, it's not excluded? [08:53]
KOZAK: I'm not going to argue with you. I'll have the supervisor call you, as obviously you're not satisfied with my answers. [08:58]
PRYTULAK: You bet I'm not. [08:58]
KOZAK: Have a nice afternoon. [09:00]
PRYTULAK: You too, bye. [09:01]
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