AND NOW MICHAEL CASALE WRITES, WITH LUBOMYR PRYTULAK COMMENTING:

Ed, Thank you for this bit of research and the result doesn't exactly suprise me.

Ed Youngblood did no research and there are no results.  He promised to do some, and we are still waiting for the results.  The results of that research, Ed Youngblood implies, will be to demonstrate that the New York Times was duped into placing an ad purportedly by a Jewish organization, but in reality by an anti-Semitic group of Jewish-Holocaust deniers.  Good luck in your efforts, Ed Youngblood!

The more impartial readers of Ed Youngblood's posting, however, may have gotten the impression that he is somewhat too ready to reach for his pair of six-shooters upon an apparent provocation.  The six-shooter strapped to his lef hip is "anti-Semitism" and the one strapped to his right hip is "Holocaust denial."  Unfortunately, Ed Youngblood is a little trigger-happy.  In the case in question, the Jewish group that placed the ad in the New York Times cannot be seen to be denying the Holocaust at all, nor can one find any evidence of anti-Semitism.  All I see is one set of Jews disagreeing with the direction being taken by another set of Jews.

Much of Mr Lubomyr's Prytulak's postings seem to have a most unsavoury flavour....

I can't help being most unsavoury � I'm Ukrainian, remember?  Our social skills are weak, and our writing irrational.  Set us an example, Michael, of most savoury writing and thinking � we will try to learn from you.

Fanatics can always find a justification for their cause and will use any half truth to justify their aims.  For example, one recent posting here claimed that Jews all over the world were citing Ukrainians in their prayers every week.  I have discussed this with both orthodox and non-orthodox sources and none of us can find any reference to Ukraine or its history in any current mainstream prayerbook.

Michael, really!  Shame on you!  You do not seem to be following this discussion very closely.  In reality, I reproduced a letter-to-the editor from Rabbi Bleich, Rabbi of Kyiv and of Ukraine, who INSISTED that he and all other eastern Jews do recite the Khmelnytsky prayer every Saturday.  Rabbi David Lincoln of the Manhattan synagogue, when he originally heard Rabbi Bleich make this statement, appeared mortified at its inappropriateness and its inflammatory nature, and challenged Rabbi Bleich as to the truth of his assertion � to which voice of reason Rabbi Bleich went out of his way to INSIST that his assertion was true.  Read his own words � go to the politics archive at

http://www.infoukes.com/lists/politics/1997/09/author.html#start

scroll down to my name, click on "02 Bleich: A Jewish Prayer" at 26 Sep 1997, and voila � there you will find Rabbi Bleich proudly proclaiming his weekly recitation of the Kymelnytsky prayer.

But I now begin to see that my discussion of Ukrainian-Jewish relations is beginning to have a payoff, and that payoff is that you and I are beginning to see things eye-to-eye.  That is, you now acknowledge that Rabbi Bleich is � in your own words � "a fanatic"!  Excellent progress!  I myself would not have gone so far as to use such strong language, but I confess that my thinking does tend somewhat in your direction.

By the way, if I had been the one to first claim that Rabbi Bleich was a "fanatic," I expect that you and Ed Youngblood (at least) would have drawn your "anti-Semite" six shooters.  But if my having said that Rabbi Bleich was a "fanatic" would have made me an anti-Semite, then what does it make you?

In fact, the only country that seems to get any mention is ancient Egypt.  Where countries are mentioned, these are inevitably prayers for the well being of the government or, in the case of the UK, the Royal Family.  So where is this prayer which is supposedly said by Jews all around the world?  Perhaps Lubomyr would like to be more specific.

Yes, Michael, I would love to be more specific.  In fact, I have already been more specific.  I have been maximally specific.  See above.  And thanks very much for setting yourself up for a fall with your question.  It's not often one is handed such a tasty plum in a debate.  And when you are in Kyiv next, perhaps you would find it instructive to consult with Rabbi Bleich and report back to us here what you learn.  Particularly, tell him that you view him as a "fanatic" and tell us what he says in his own defense.

There have also been several mentions of the Talmud to Rabbi Bleich in Kyiv (Kiev).  These extracts bear a remarkable similarity to some anti-semitic postings which have been apearing on several Usenet groups over the past few months.  Although the Talmud was written by some of the most learned Rabbis of their day, much of it is arguement upon arguement.  There are ultra-orthodox Jews who will base their lives on it and there is much wisdom in it which is applicable to all mankind.  But it does have to be separated out from what is unacceptable in the 20th century.  However, it was written in a time when virtually all mankind believed the earth was flat and the established Church hadn't even reached the point of drowning women in ponds to see if they were witches.

The extracts from the Talmud were cited by Israel Shahak, a noted and respected Israeli scholar and Belsen survivor.  I very much regret that you consider Israel Shahak's writing to resemble that of some anti-Semitic authors.  I think that Professor Shahak might disagree with you, and I bet that if you were to debate him, he would get the better of you, as his thinking is just a little tighter than your own.  I sense here a certain looseness in your application of the term "anti-Semitic" and wonder if you should not keep this six-shooter in its holster until you became sure that it was really called for.

By far the majority of modern Jews would find some suggestions in the Talmud totally odd and not relevant to them.  We have to view it as an expression of its time rather than a set of up to date instructions of how a Jew (and others) should lead their lives.  ...

Right!  Isreal Shahak did use these extracts to � among other things � demonstrate what Jewish ideology was like DURING THE TIME OF KHMELNYTSKY � and that was the significance that I myself gave to the quotations that I cited.  Israel Shahak does go on to point out the degree to which these ancient writings seem to control Israeli thinking today � but that is a discussion that I don't want to get involved in.  If you are interested in that line of argument, please don't take it up with me � please consult Israel Shahak's book: Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years, Pluto Press, London and Boulder Colorado, 1994.

I also note that apart from myself and one or two others, nobody else seems to be too worried about Ukrainian Jewish relationships if the response is anything to go by.  However, in my simplicity, it seems to me that if you claim that there is a problem, and you shout it long and loud enough, then perhaps you might create a problem where non existed before.

There seems to be an echo in this room.  Are not those my own words that you are throwing back at me?  That is, it is my position that the difficulty in Ukrainian-Jewish relations is that Jews are creating it by shouting Ukrainophobic slogans long and loud.  And when I object to this Jewish calumny of Ukrainians, you accuse me of hurting Ukrainian-Jewish relations.  I don't get it.