Witnesses for defense in transcripts12.html
(Jerusalem, Feb. 16, 1987 - Apr. 24, 1988)
SUMMARY of English-language TRANSCRIPTS
William Flynn; T010444 - 10727; 1987/11/23 - 25; Vol. 18
[1987/11/23, Mon.; T010444, Vol. 18; Flynn]
[Top] [1987/11/23] [1987/11/24] [1987/11/25] [Bottom]
T010444f - Gill direct examination of Flynn.
- William Flynn; Glendale College (1978) Phoenix, Arizona; chief questioned document analyst for the Arizona Department of Public Safety (since 1973); training at Pennsylvania Police State Laboratories, Harrisburg; Philadelphia Police Department (5 years); 15,000 reports, 1.5 M documents; case work for Federal Gov't, FBI, Secret Service, U.S. Treasury, Immigration and Naturalization Service, 140 different police agencies; 5 courses, 50 seminars; examines questioned documents (hand written, typed, printed, photocopied, etc.), restores documents, quality control of subordinates, expert testimony.
T010450 - Flynn is vice-president of American Board of Forensic Document Examiners and knows Gideon Epstein, who is one of 203 certified members. Julius Grant is an honorary member of the American Society.
T010452 - Has published 3 papers in the last 20 years with another pending in February 1988.
T010453 - Also does work for U.S. Army, Airforce, OSI, etc.
T010456 - Received over 200 awards and commendations.
T010457 - Examples of cases involve bigamy, land fraud, impeachment of Governor of Arizona, White Salamander Fraud.
T010458 - White Salamander Fraud case involved a master forgerer, Mark William Hoffman, who produced fraudulent historical documents for ten years involving the Mormon Church which were supposed to be 150 years old; whereas they were about 1 year old. Many prominent document examiners were fooled.
T010459f - Shaked objects to the proposed showing of a video cassette on the case (which Sheftel showed to him), claiming that it is irrelevant, and involves Leiter (who will be testifying for the defense).
T010463 - Levin to Sheftel: "You really missed the boat in a way as far as Cantu is concerned."
T010464 - Sheftel: "Leiter, Cantu and so on, they said that the ink was alright and it turned out to have been forgery ..."
- Albert Leiter and perhaps Mr. Charles Hamilton (who actually exposed the Hoffman forgeries) will also testify for the defense.
T010468 - Sheftel: "He [Cantu] said the ink was marvelous and therefore the document is authentic. And in fact there is an interview with him."
T010478f - Levin postpones decision on video cassette.
- Flynn describes Hoffman's forging techniques - took blank fly leafs from inside of old books, mixed his own ink to match that of old inks, artificially aged the inks to enhance oxidation [by heat?], took several calligraphy courses, learned to use a quill pen.
T010481f - Flynn: "I tell you, in all honesty, had I not had access to those other 640 documents [in the archives of the Mormon Church], I would not have been able to determine also that the documents were forgeries."
- "... we were able to show that none of the inks that had aged naturally over that same 150 year time, displayed the same type of surface cracking as the Hoffman document."
- The abnormal surface cracking was due to the gum arabic he added to the ink combined with the aging process.
- Hoffman had a "hidden laboratory behind a secret door in his basement".
- "Two forensic ink chemists, Dr. Cantu and Al Leiter who had done some of the ink work on the documents as well. A -- Dr. Antonio Cantu and Albert Leiter."
- The seminar summarized in the video cassette took place October 15, 1987.
T010498 - Flynn taught forgery and counterfeiting course at Phoenix College for 28 semesters.
- Has a very well equipped laboratory.
T010500 - Levin: "In accordance with a request of the defense, we enable the accused in this part of this morning's session not to be present in Court, but to listen to the proceedings in his cell."
- Presumably, Mr. Demjanjuk was ill and in pain.
- Levin rules that the judges will view only certain relevant parts of the video tape that afternoon, but that the prosecution must be shown the other parts as well.
T010502f - On August 21, 1987, Gill flew to Arizona to show Flynn Judge Dorner's copy of tav/145 = Bezalely's compilation of photographs and documents.
- Flynn arrived in Israel on Sunday, Sept. 20, 1987, and viewed documents until Wednesday, Sept. 23, 1987.
- examined all the Cyrillic and non-Cyrillic original signatures of Demjanjuk, photographic or photocopies of Teufel's signatures, 4 original and copies of Streibel signatures.
- also examined a 1977 letter in Cyrillic written by John Demjanjuk.
T010505 - Flynn: "The [examination] techniques that were employed in both the Hoffman case and in this case were identical."
T010507f - Gill tries to submit Flynn's album to the court, but Shaked objects since he claims it is a not very good copy of tav/145.
T010508 - Sheftel: "This album contains original forgeries by the present witness of all the signatures relevant to the present case ..."
T010509 - Sheftel: "Now, this witness [Flynn] has superimposed the accused face [Demjanjuk] onto a Nazi uniform in such a way that no forensic expert could be able to tell ..."
T010512 - Nun/103 = Flynn's album illustrating forged signatures of Streibel and Teufel.
- Gill asks Flynn to explain what he did with regard to the Streibel signature; Shaked objects.
T010524 - In trying to convince the judges of the importance of Flynn's illustrations, Sheftel erroneously states: "After all this is the very crux of the matter, Streibel's and Teufel's signatures."
- [W.Z. I completely disagree with Sheftel's approach to the Streibel and Teufel signatures. It is as if he is deliberately trying to magnify the importance of these signatures to the same level as that of the Demjanjuk signature. Even if the Streibel and Teufel signatures are authentic, that does not mean that the Trawniki ID card is authentic.]
T010527 - Levin: "For reasons which we have already established in the process of this deliberations and for other reasons which we will include in our judgement if need be, we sustain the objection and disallow the question."
T010528 - Levin: "... would you say in your opinion that the KGB could then forge a document such as tav/149?"
- Flynn: "Yes."
T010529 - Flynn re Streibel signature: "... I can find no flaw that would indicate it is not a genuine signature."
T010533 - Flynn: "... there is an enormous difference in the signature style of Mr. Teufel."
- Gill has great trouble asking a relevant question that is not disallowed.
T010538 - Gill refers to a horizontally stretched Streibel signature in tav/145/5 = tav/99.
T010540 - Flynn re Teufel signature: "As with the Streibel signature, I could find no fact which I could use to establish that that was in fact a forgery."
T010545 - Nun/104 = video cassette concerning Hoffman forgeries, edited to to suit the judges.
- Nun/104a = English-language transcripts of above
- Nun/104b = Hebrew-language transcripts of above.
T010547 - Flynn states that the purpose of the symposium was to indicate to document examiners, that even if forensic testing cannot disprove the authenticity of the documents, one cannot automatically declare the documents authentic.
T010549 - Flynn: "Yes, in my opinion, I feel it is highly unlikely that the Demjanjuk signature which appears on tav/149 was executed by the suspect, John Demjanjuk."
- This is based on 3 points - the capital letter "D", all the lower case letters in the questioned signature are connected, the formation of the letter "ja".
- Flynn also includes the 1977 Demjanjuk letter in his evaluation.
T010551 - Flynn: "I have made several observations concerning the ink on the document, but I performed myself no particular ink analysis on the document."
- [W.Z. WHY NOT?]
- Long discussion as to Flynn composing inks from that era.
T010567 - Levin overrules a question on typewriter inks and folds in tav/149.
T010569 - Gill refers to a Robert Lockhard who was either a supervisor or employee of Gideon Epstein, but Levin disallows the question.
T010576 - Flynn: "... to assume a third signature is authentic and therefore an entire document authentic, on the basis that two of the signatures are authentic -- ant the third cannot be identified -- is a ludicrous proposition."
- Flynn points out that Streibel and Teufel could have pre-signed a bunch of cards.
T010587 - Gill refers to photograph on tav/149.
T010588 - Gill refers to the inks in the Russian writing and the alleged Demjanjuk signature "do not have any iron components". - shaked objects
T010590 - Flynn: "Of the analysis, the ink [in the staple holes] does match the purple ink of the Russian KGB catalogue data. And there is non-iron containing ink.
T010591 - Gill: "Would you please explain to the court what the significance is that there is no iron in the Russian ink and the ink that is alleged to be the signature of the Demjanjuk?" - Levin disallows the question because it was not included in Flynn's expert opinion.
William Flynn; T010595 - 10686; 1987/11/24; Vol. 18
[1987/11/24, Tue.; T010595, Vol. 18; Flynn]
[Top] [1987/11/23] [1987/11/24] [1987/11/25] [Bottom]
T010595 - Demjanjuk is again absent because of ill health.
- Significance of 1977 Demjanjuk signature is that it is similar to the 1986 original signatures and it provides a more or less continuous sample from 1947 through 1986.
T010596f - Can state without doubt that photo was not continuously on tav/149.
- Highly unlikely that the matching Russian ink got into the staple holes accidentally.
T010598f - Gill refers to photomontage in nun/103 and Shaked objects.
- long discussion.
T010607 - Sheftel: undetectable photomontage is likely "especially in view of the photograph in tav/149."
T010614 - After a 10 minute break, Sheftel says that because of the rulings on the forged signatures and the photomontage -- "we see no point in continuing with this witnesses testimony."
- "Under these circumstances, we waive his testimony and we ask that it be stricken from the record from start to finish."
T010618 - Although Shaked initially has no objection, after another 15 minute backroom consultation, Shaked insists on his right to cross-examine Flynn. Session is adjourned until afternoon.
T010620 - Levin insists that Flynn must be cross-examined.
T010625f - Shaked cross-examines Flynn.
- Flynn: "... untenable position. I have been requested not to testify by my client and to testify by the court."
T010633f - Flynn concedes that, since the Hoffman case, he is "much more comfortable giving a negative reply to the authenticity of a historical document than a positive reply ..."
- "The Hoffman case did change my approach and my humility."
- Shaked tries to get Flynn to change his stand about historical documents, but Flynn insists that now document examiners have added the "we cannot tell" expert opinion.
T010641 - Dr. Cantu was involved in White Salamander case with respect to the inks as of April 1986.
- [W.Z. The prosecution had obviously phoned Cantu about this. Why didn't Gill insist that Shaked testify as to when and who obtained this information?]
T010645f - Shaked tackles the 3 anomalies that Flynn pointed out in tav/149.
- Staple holes -- no other photos on documents have staple holes.
- Re-gluing of photos in tav/149 and tav/223 (Wolembachow) - attempt to realign in tav/149 and not in tav/223
- Flynn submitted his 2 reports on Nov. 2 and 12, 1987.
T010655 - MISSING
T010657 - MISSING
T010658 - Shaked says that KGB would have forged Demjanjuk's signature on the basis of some standards.
- Flynn replies: "They obviously did not have proper standards."
- [W.Z. Flynn later claimed that the KGB got this signature from a letter that Demjanjuk's Red Army commanding officer wrote on his behalf.]
T010660 - Shaked keeps pushing the idea that the KGB were more likely to have a "standard" with a curlicue D rather than coming up with a pure invention.
- Flynn agrees.
- [W.Z. I am suspicious. Was Shaked fully aware of Flynn's future thesis? Or did Flynn get the idea from Shaked? Was this a setup?]
T010662 - MISSING
T010667 - Analysis of 1977 letter = nun/92
T010688 - MISSING
T010669f - Shaked: "... Tav/223 and tav/222 there are no signatures at all in the position where there would normally be a signature by the bearer of the document -- would be then apparently that if someone wanted to send or issue a document in the name of this or that person, then it would not have in any way been necessary to forge the signature, the document could have been sent off without a signature,
just with the picture and a name, just on the basis of that -- then the document could have been related to that particular person."
- [W.Z. In the Polish and Jewish underground during WWII, such a document would be available without a picture and without a signature. When the need arose to send an agent to some particular location, then one could glue on the picture of the agent and have him sign it.]
T010672 - Flynn: "My point in saying that is that it is possible that the document could be genuine, without the signature being genuine."T010674f - Shaked has obtained an audio cassette of Flynn speaking at the Palm Springs Conference [October??, 1987] and quotes from it:
T010679f - Flynn clarifies again that he could find nothing wrong with the ink, the printing process, the paper fiber so that the "document itself as far as I could determine was an authentic document from that time period", but that does not mean that the Demjanjuk signature is authentic.
T010681 - Flynn: "Al Leiter, who attended the meeting, also told me that he had done some ink work on this document ... I believe that I was aware that Kitty Nepstein had also done some work on the card."
- [W.Z. WHO IS KITTY NEPSTEIN?]
T010681 - Shaked quoting Flynn from Palm Springs: "I have examined the card first hand for 3 days, I have examined the thing microscopically, and there is nothing about that card that I can see that would not have passed muster ... ... ... it could be absolute in their finding, absolute accurate, and yet the card itself may not be genuine."
T010683 - Flynn: "... I very adamantly believe that the opposite is true, that to prove it is genuine, we must be able to demonstrate that it is genuine. And to do that you must demonstrate that that signature falls within the range of variation of the writer. If we cannot prove that then we cannot show the signature is genuine."
T010685 - Levin indicates that the cassette is a video [and not an audio as I had assumed] and orders that it be taken to police headquarters where Flynn and representatives from the court, prosecution and defense be allowed to view it.
- [I find it incredible that Sheftel and Gill did not insist that the prosecution present a full chain of custody of this particular video tape. They also should have demanded a full copy and time to view and prepare a response to it.]
William Flynn; T010687 - 10727; 1987/11/25; Vol. 18
[1987/11/25, Wed.; T010687, Vol. 18; Flynn]
[Top] [1987/11/23] [1987/11/24] [1987/11/25] [Bottom]
T010687 - Shaked says that Flynn et al did not show up to view the [video] cassette the previous evening, so now the video will be shown in court.
T010688 - MISSING
T010689 - MISSING
T010690 - Flynn is refusing to testify because [Ed] Nishnic of the John Demjanjuk Defense Fund has threatened to sue him if he does.
T010691f - Flynn: "Yes my contract, my contractual relationship in this matter was with the John Demjanjuk Defense Fund, which is run by Mr. Nishnic. My understanding is that the suit would take place in the United States as a result of that contract."
- Flynn pleads for understanding; Levin is very sympathetic.
- Shaked proposes to ask Flynn 2 or 3 questions on the cassette and then terminate the cross-examination.
- Levin says that this could be construed as obstruction of justice and suggests that the defense lawyers speak with Nishnic.
T010697 - MISSING
T010700 - Sheftel says that there should be no further cross-examination of Flynn.
- "I believe that the Prosecution cannot meet the six requirements with respect to the admissibility of this cassette -- we don't have the person who made the cassette to testify ..."
T010701f - Shaked only wants Flynn to confirm that the voice and contents of the tape are those of Flynn.
- Sheftel is prepared to confirm that the voice on the tape is that of Flynn.
T010703f - Mr. Gabai instructs technician to play excerpts of the tape.
- [Presumably, the court and defense have been provided with transcripts of the tape.] - Shaked wants to submit the tape and Sheftel objects because the six criteria for admissibility have not been met.
T010711f - After a recess, Dorner reads the judges long ruling. Sheftel's objection is overruled. The cassette and transcripts of 3 excerpts are accepted.
- [W.Z. It is not clear to me if the cassette is the original [video?] cassette, or edited video or audio excerpts of the original. At any rate, the chain of custody of the original video or audio cassette has not been established.]
T010715 - Tav/271 = cassette of Flynn speaking at Palm Springs.
- Tav/271a = verbatim transcripts of the cassette.
T010716 - There is no re-direct by the defense and Flynn is excused.
- The next day, Thursday, Nov. 26, 1987, is Thanksgiving in the U.S.
T010718 - Sheftel: "Our planning was such that we intended to summon up Albert Leiter after William Flynn, but we have been ordered not to do so, for which reason we have not summoned him."
- Levin: "Because the expert opinion concerning his testimony, was not drawn up on time."
T010719f - After long discussion about the feasibility of Sheftel summoning his Israeli witness, or having Mr. Demjanjuk testify about the 1946 photograph, nun/100, submitted during the Wagenaar testimony, and because of rogatories in Germany in early December, it is decided to cancel all sittings until Dec. 14, 1987.
T010725 - Levin: "Between the 1st of December and the 13th of December, rogatories will be conducted of witness Reiss, from the Federal Republic of Germany."
- Hearings shall recommence on Dec. 14, 1987
- 4 or more expert witnesses are scheduled to testify.
- Expert opinions are to be in hands of prosecution by Dec. 2, 1987.
- Summings up by prosecution are to begin on Jan. 18, 1988; the defense immediately thereafter.
T010727 - **** END of Flynn testimony on 1987/11/25, in trial and in Vol. 18 ****
Yasar Iscan; T010728 - 11116; 1987/12/14 - 21; Vol. 19
[1987/12/14, Mon.; T010728, Vol. 19; Iscan]
[Top] [1987/12/14] [1987/12/15] [1987/12/16] [1987/12/17] [1987/12/21] [Bottom]
T010728 - Levin: "We were very sorry to hear about the death of Prosecuting Counsel Shaked's brother."
- Presumably the situation was discussed the day before (Sunday)
- Session is to be adjourned at 10:30 am.
T010732f - Paul Chumak direct examination of Prof. Iscan
- [W.Z. I am astounded that the new defense lawyer from Canada, Paul Chumak, was not introduced and welcomed by the court.]
- [Yasar] Iscan [pronounced Eastjohn] is Professor of Anthropology at Florida Atlantic University.
- born in Turkey; BA at University of Ankara (1968); Smithsonian Institute; Indiana University (1969 - 1971); taught human skeletal anatomy and human races; Cornell University (1971); MA (1973); PhD. (1976); full professor at Florida Atlantic University in 1986; specializes in forensic anthropology which is branch of physical anthropology; Iscan is a Fellow of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences; there are 32 certified forensic anthropologists.
T010748 - Iscan: "Of course, I know Dr. [Patricia] Smith."
T010751f - Iscan was consulted during identification of Josef Mengele's skeleton.
- examples of particular cases Iscan was involved in.
- made video tape of superposition of image of face onto a skull (1983).
- has appeared a number of times in court.
- has "prepared a video superposition for the purposes of this trial".
- Iscan has been involved in about 40 cases.
- gives lectures to police; has organized about 18 conferences and symposia.
- authored, edited or co-edited The Human Skeleton in Forensic Medicine, The Reconstruction of Life from the Skeleton, Age Markers in the Human Skeleton.
T010765 - Levin adjourns session for Shaked brother's funeral.
- "Because of the Hannukah Festival -- this weeks deliberations will take place only in the morning from 8:30 to 2:00."
Yasar Iscan; T010766 - 10855; 1987/12/15; Vol. 19
[1987/12/15, Tue.; T010766, Vol. 19; Iscan]
[Top] [1987/12/14] [1987/12/15] [1987/12/16] [1987/12/17] [1987/12/21] [Bottom]
T010766f - long description of Iscan updating Dr. Krogman's original The Human Skeleton in Forensic Medicine (1986), which is used at the graduate level at Florida Atlantic University.
- D-ABFA = Diplomate, American Board of Forensic Anthropology, "qualifies me in court as being a forensic anthropologist."
T010779 - Nun/105 = Iscan's 25 page professional C.V.
T010780f - Defining the term "human variation".
- The blackboard is too high [deliberately?] and needs to be adjusted.
T010782 - Levin: "As far as we are concerned, a great deal of this type of expose could be dropped, but if Counsel Chumak is interested in this, it is for the Defense to decide."
- [W.Z. Levin did not protest Patricia Smith's "expose".]
T010783f - very long expositions on discrete genetic traits (attached earlobe, red-green color blindness, blood group); concepts of geographic race, local race, microrace; cultural factors which affect human variation.
T010797 - MISSING
T010798 - MISSING
T010806 - MISSING
T010810f - After recess, blackboard is available which Iscan uses to illustrate his points.
T010816 - Iscan: "... what is important here is how many features do we need in the face to declare a positive identification."
T010819 - Chumak suggests superposition technique cannot make a positive identification, only a possible identification.
- Iscan: "... if there are no other supporting evidence, it would be very difficult to make a positive I.D. on the case like that."
T010822 - Iscan: "Therefore I would classify situations like that as indeterminant."
T010827 - Chumak: "Your opinion doctor, is that anthropometric measurements ... [such as those of Altman and Patricia Smith] ... are essentially worthless?"
- Iscan: "Essentially, correct."
T010828 - Nun/106 = blackboard sketch made by Dr. Iscan.
T010836 - Nun/107 = "protruding ears" photos from U.S. Cadets yearbook
- despite prosecutor Daphna Bainvol's objections as to statistical representation.
T010838 - MISSING
T010840 - MISSING
T010843 - Iscan was contacted Oct. 8 or 10, 1987, to act as witness for the defense.
- He received the transcript and later tav/150 prepared by Altman (judge Tal's copy)
- He compared it to the original tav/150 when he came to Israel.
T010848 - MISSING
T010849 - Daphna Bainvol or Blatman objects to introducing an "expert" opinion of Dr. Dan Ortner, which he had sent to Patricia Smith.
- [and which presumably disagrees with her testimony.]
- Sheftel says he called the prosecution in late November and Blatman admits Sheftel called him yesterday (Dec. 15, 1987) and admits the prosecution has such a document.
T010855 - Levin postpones his decision to the following day.
Yasar Iscan; T010856 - 10941; 1987/12/16; Vol. 19
[1987/12/16, Wed.; T010856, Vol. 19; Iscan]
[Top] [1987/12/14] [1987/12/15] [1987/12/16] [1987/12/17] [1987/12/21] [Bottom]
T010856f - Chumak asks that the prosecution turn over the Ortner material to the defense.
- Secondly, Chumak wants the conversation between Iscan and Ortner on the record.
- Very long discussion by Ms. Bainvol and judges about admissibility of material.
- Chumak argues very forcefully that such material should be made available to the court and defense.
- Levin postpones ruling to after recess.
T010883f - Chumak resumes questioning Iscan on tav/150.
- with respect to photo 5, Iscan refers to retouching, "the face looks younger than actual face".
- Iscan recites an incredible amount of minute detail about features in facial photographs.
T010910 - Levin rules that the Ortner conversation is inadmissible. The question of the prosecution supplying the defense the expert opinion of Dr. Ortner is postponed to a later date; however, but suggests it would be fitting for the prosecution to put the document at the disposal of the defense.
T010912 - Chumak asks Iscan about "the scientific validity of the 24 points of comparison that Mr. Altman has pointed out".
- Iscan says that, since 2 are repeated, there are only 22, of which only 10 or 12 are accepted by the scientific community.
- Levin protests that interpreter Mrs. Batya Frost cannot keep up.
- Of the remaining 12 remaining points, some are inter-related.
T010919f - Chumak asks Iscan to compare photos 9 and 12 in Altman's album.
- Iscan lists differences on these 2 specific photos, and then goes on to indicate many differences amongst photos 9 through 16.
- He particularly emphasizes the ear in photo 9.
T010925 - MISSING
T010929 - Iscan: "... I can only classify it as an indeterminate case."
T010936f - Chumak asks to show video tape of Patricia Smith, tav/171.
- Iscan was sent and viewed a copy in Florida, and viewed the original in Israel.
- Iscan criticizes the tape under 3 headings -- dealing with 2-D object superposed on 2-D object.
T010941 - Levin doesn't like the physical setup, and decides that videotape will be shown the next morning. He adjourns.
Yasar Iscan; T010942 - 11017; 1987/12/17; Vol. 19
[1987/12/17, Wed.; T010942, Vol. 19; Iscan]
[Top] [1987/12/14] [1987/12/15] [1987/12/16] [1987/12/17] [1987/12/21] [Bottom]
T010943f - Iscan explains the 3 problems with the superposition in tav/171-- imperfect matching, the dissolve process, which of the 2 cameras is the base.
- the illusion effect as one image replaces another.
- "As I pointed out earlier, that there is on the screen itself, a centimeter, maybe two centimeter discrepancy between the tips of the two ears.
T010978 - The video viewing is over and Chumak asks:
- "..., what is your opinion with regard to the positive identification of photograph one, the Trawniki photo and Dr. Patricia Smith's video tape?"
- Iscan, after a preamble: "Therefore, I cannot say that these two individuals are the same or not the same ... Therefore, this process seems that the result is indeterminant."
T010980 - After recess, Levin announces that they have unexpectedly received rogatories from Poland.
- "And now suddenly we receive the protocols of these rogatories in Poland without the rogatories having been conducted in the proper manner."
- Levin says they are available to the prosecution and defense, but doesn't rule on their usability.
T010984 - After a long preliminary that Patricia Smith was not a paid witness, Daphna Bainvol says: "We will make the [Ortner] material available to the defense."
- Chumak about Polish rogatories: "I traveled to Poland personally to --"
- Levin cuts him off: "I'm not concerned with this at the present time, Mr. Chumak."
T010985 - Iscan explains the advantage of a skull-photo superimposition compared to the photo-to-photo superimposition. (Briefly, one can physically rotate the skull to match the photo.)
T010989 - Iscan had received first a half inch video tape of tav/171 and then a three quarter inch version. He also received negatives of photos 1 (1942 Trawniki photo), 3 and 5 in tav/150 from which he made 8.5" x 11" prints.
T010990 - Nun/108 = 8.5"x11" enlargement of photo 1, tav/150 (Trawniki ID card)
- Nun/109 = 8.5"x11" enlargement of photo 3, tav/150 (1947?)
- Nun/110 = 8.5"x11" enlargement of photo 5, tav/150 (1951?)
T010996 - Nun/111 = 8.5"x11" photo 1 of KM age 60 taken in 1987
- Nun/112 = 8.5"x11" photo 4 of KM age 60 taken in 1987
T010998 - Nun/113 = 8.5"x11" photo of KM age 40 with face turned right to left
- Nun/114 = 8.5"x11" photo of KM age 40 with face turned left to right
- Nun/115 = 8.5"x11" photo of KM age 20 with face
- where KM is a colleague of Dr. Iscan.
T011002f - Nun/116 = video cassette superimposing the KM photos onto the Altman photos.
- Iscan runs through the video
- Iscan shows that, except for the ears, his superimposition is better than that of Patricia Smith.
- Iscan also shows a "fast" superimposition of friend KB onto one of Altman's photos.
T011014 - As a result of creating this video tape, Iscan concludes: "One way or another I cannot support the positive identification using the material available to me."
T011017 - Levin indicates that testimony will continue on Monday, Dec. 21, 1987, and cross-examination will continue until Dec. 23, 1987.
Yasar Iscan; T011018 - 11116; 1987/12/21; Vol. 19
[1987/12/21, Mon.; T010942, Vol. 19; Iscan]
[Top] [1987/12/14] [1987/12/15] [1987/12/16] [1987/12/17] [1987/12/21] [Bottom]
T011018f - Chumak states that, although Bainvol gave the defense an FBI and Ortner report, she did not include the enclosures. He asks that these enclosures and relative correspondence be turned over to the defense.
- Secondly, Chumak wants this material be submitted as evidence as an exception to the hearsay rule.
- Levin states that Chumak can make his request after the conclusion of Iscan's testimony.
- [He makes it clear that he will not allow Iscan to comment on these reports.]
T011022 - Chumak asks Iscan to critique Patricia Smith's approach.
T011032 - Nun/117 = comparative table of measurements taken by Iscan of photos 1, 3, 5 of tav/150.
T011036 - Nun/118 = another table of measurements taken by Iscan of photos 1, 3, 5 of tav/150.
T011039 - Nun/119 = a third table of discrepancies of measurements of photos 1, 3, 5 of tav/150.
T011043 - Nun/120 = photo from tav/163 with line drawn between earlobes to indicate tilt of head.
T011044 - Iscan re Patricia Smith's measurements on the twins: "... the difference between that then is more artificial then real ..."
T011045 - Iscan: "... as I've indicated earlier last week, the Frankfurt Horizontal Plane is formed by 3 landmarks in the head."
- [W.Z. This is a standardized pose, which presumably was described in a MISSING page.]
T011046 - Nun/121 = Patricia Smith's twin photos (tav/164) with lines drawn by Iscan
T011052 - Nun/122 = set of photos of KM, who appears in nun/116
- Nun/122a = photo of KM at age 40
- Nun/122b = photo of KM at age 20
- Nun/123 = set of photos from tav/150 of Altman
- Nun/123a = photo 1 (Trawniki ID card) of tav/150
- Nun/123b = photo 3 of tav/150
- Nun/123c = photo 5 of tav/150
T011053 - Nun/124 = table of measurements by Iscan comparing nun/122 to nun/123.
T011060 - Nun/125 = another table of comparison by Iscan
T011063 - Nun/126 = an additional table on Trawniki ID card by Iscan
T011064f - Iscan explains the measurements in his tables and summarizes which photos were closest to photo 1 (Trawniki ID card):
- In 3 cases, photo 3 was closest to photo 1
- In 2 cases, KM 4 was closest to photo 1
- In 1 case, photo 5 was closest to photo 1
- In last case, KM 20 (years of age) was closest to photo 1
- Iscan eliminated 4 of the indices because there was no sequence.
T011065 - Iscan concludes that his measurements show that one cannot say that photo 1 is the same as photos 3 and 5 without a doubt.
- Levin points out "But the primary and secondary similarity is 5 times" between photos 1 and 3.
T011066 - Iscan: "... it is almost impossible to make any positive identification" using photographic comparison as done by Patricia Smith.
T011069 - After recess, Chumak concludes with a series of short questions:
- Smithsonian Institute, where Dr. Ortner is curator; FBI; Patricia Smith's methods; etc.
- Levin keeps interrupting and accusing Chumak of repeating previously asked questions.
- Levin finally says Chumak has run out of time and asks him to sit down.
T011076f - Shaked cross-examination of Iscan
- Shaked starts his discreditation of Iscan's qualification as an expert witness by questioning why "library exhibits" is included in his C.V.
- Patricia Smith has more publications (because she is older)
- Despite 74 abstracts, Iscan has only 24 publications
- Out of Patricia Smith's bibliography, Iscan read only 2 articles
- Shaked questions Iscan about some of the cases he was involved in.
T011116 - **** END of Iscan testimony on 1987/12/21 and in Vol. 19 ****
T011117 - T011548 - MISSING
- These 432 missing pages probably comprise of 3 days of testimony:
- Tue. and Wed., Dec. 22 -23, 1987 = cross-examination of Iscan
- Mon., Dec. 28, 1987 = unknown contents.
Iscan's sole purpose at the trial is to discredit the testimony of Reinhardt Altman and Patricia Smith, which he does reasonably well. However, we do not have the last two days of the cross-examination so do not know if Shaked managed to discredit Iscan.
Paul Chumak from Toronto, Canada, appears to be a meticulous and competent attorney. Certainly, more so than Gill. It is not clear how Sheftel and Chumak got along.]
Yitzhak Almagor; T011549 - 11565; 1987/12/29; Vol. 20
[1987/12/29, Tue.; T011549, Vol. 20; Almagor]
[Top] [1987/12/29] [Bottom]
T011549f - Sheftel direct examination of Yitzhak Almagor.
- Almagor wants to make it appear that he was called by the court, but Levin insists that he is a witness for the defense.
T011551f - born in 1918, Warsaw, Poland under name Sergei Appleboim; taken to ghetto in 1943 and escaped into woods with other people; recruited into Red Army and arrived in Berlin in 1945; demobilized.
- [W.Z. Why was he not sent home before demobilization?]
- Arrested on January 26, 1946, in Berlin with another group of soldiers who wanted to reach Palestine.
- Is recognized as a Prisoner of Zion.
T011553f - Nun/133 = certificate in Hebrew from a Russian original indicating Almagor's imprisonment.
- Nun/134 = certificate indicating Almagor is recognized as a Prisoner of Zion.
- Nun/135 = distinction award to Almagor from Aryeh Dulzin, Chairman of World Zionist Organization.
T01554f - Almagor was transferred from a camp (can't remember name) in summer of 1946 to Revinsk, Russia; sentenced in 1948 to 5 years and then exile.
T011556f - Almagor: "I personally was in the same room with another two Jews who had served in Vlasov's Army ... One was about 27-28 years of age, Gendelman, and Salamonoff was about 35 years old."
- Blatman objects to hearsay evidence, but judges ask him to withdraw his objection. When he refuses, they overrule his objection.
T011560f - Gendelman and Salamonoff were interpreters near the headquarters of the Vlasov Army.
- They had been POWs and volunteered for Vlasov's Army because they had nothing to eat in the camp.
- Arrived in Revinsk with Almagor, worked on hydroelectric power station, "turned from prisoners into guards".
- "There were several hundred of Vlasov's people serving guard ... around the city of Uchtah."
- Several more Jews arrived in 50 boxcars ... "They were guards too"
T011565 - Blatman declines to cross-examine Almagor.
I am constantly amazed that Jewish witnesses do not give, and are not pressed to give, the details of their stay in Germany.]
T011565 - **** END of Almagor testimony on 1987/12/29 and in Vol. 20 ****
John Demjanjuk; T011566 - 11652; 1987/12/29; Vol. 20
[1987/12/29, Tue.; T011566, Vol. 20; Demjanjuk]
[Top] [1987/12/29] [Bottom]
T011566 - Gill complains that one elderly gentleman is not a good translator for Mr. Demjanjuk.
- Levin declares recess.
T011568 - Interpreter complained about Gill's aspersion. Gill apologizes to Mr. Smoroditsky and complements Mrs. Schneider and Mr. Roditsky.
T011571f - Demjanjuk says that nun/100 is his photograph as a policeman at the Felderfink Camp in about 1951
- very confusing description of camp Elevankon, Bad Reichenhal, "it may have been 1951, we were transferred to Felderfink"
- registered as policeman for 3 to 5 weeks.
T011575 - Demjanjuk: "I think I was there more than 7 months, because we got there in spring 1951 and we were there all of 1951 and part of 1952. And in 1952, I set out for the United States."
T011576 - "My son said that he found it in the family album. ... this was the police uniform IRO."
T011579 - Nun/136 = photo of Demjanjuk circa 1948 in Regensburg in American uniform next to vehicle.
T011581f - Shaked cross-examination of Demjanjuk.
T011584 - Problems with interpretation from Ukrainian. Sheftel says "Mr. Chumak speaks Ukrainian" and suggests Chumak be allowed to redflag misinterpretations.
T011586f - Shaked points out that Sheftel said that nun/100 was from Landshut in 1946.
- Demjanjuk is surprised: "Ask Sheftel, I never said such a thing to anyone."
- He claims he wasn't in courtroom at the time.
- Suggests that maybe daughter Irene told Sheftel that.
T011591 - Levin declares a recess to check if Demjanjuk was in courtroom when nun/100 was submitted during Wagenaar's testimony.
T011597 - It turns out that Demjanjuk was absent on Nov. 23 and 24, 1987 when Flynn was testifying.
- Demjanjuk pleads confusion.
T011605 - It was UNRRA in Landshut and possibly Regensburg and IRO later.
T011614 - According to tav/190 and tav/22c, Demjanjuk was asked about Felderfink in the U.S.
T011618 - Demjanjuk says that at Felderfink "because I received unemployment allowance, I couldn't be registered as a policeman", but he did unofficially work as such.
T011623 - Shaked: "... when it comes to your marriage with your wife, there is a certain story that involves someone else another man, is that correct?"
- Demjanjuk: "Correct."
T011625 - Shaked has 6 volumes of the history of UNRRA and IRO. The document to establish the IRO (to replace UNRRA) was signed in late December 1946. So it was impossible for Demjanjuk to be an IRO policeman in 1946.
- [W.Z. Not knowing this illustrates Sheftel's incompetence. Unless he did this deliberately to create controversy]
T011626 - Demjanjuk: "Mr. Sheftel answered that all of this would be cleared up in court."
- Shaked wants to submit: "... excerpts from a book which sums up the history [of] the IRO, both with reference to the date on which the convention was signed on Dec. 31, 1946, and with respect to the active entry of the IRO into the DP camps in July 1947."
T011629 - Tav/273 = pp. 405-6, 409 of Malcolm Proudfoot, European Refugees between 1939 and 1952.
T01630 - Shaked suggests that Demjanjuk originally went along with the Landshut 1946 story but changed his story to Felderfink 1951 when it became obvious that the original story would not hold up in court.
- Demjanjuk: "... I do not agree that this is what happened."
T011632f - Gill re-direct examination of Demjanjuk.
- Question "who it was that told Mr. Sheftel that nun/100 was from Landshut" is disallowed.
- Other similar questions are also disallowed.
T011635 - Demjanjuk: "I don't know when, all I know is that he [his son, Johnny] came to me in prison and told me that my daughter Irena, had found this photograph."
T011636f - Gill makes application that Yoram Sheftel be allowed to tell his side of the story.
- Levin says that would be very unusual and suggests the defense withdraw the application.
- Sheftel says that the impression is left either that Demjanjuk told Sheftel that the picture was from Landshut or that Sheftel deliberately deceived Wagenaar.
- He is prepared to step down as Demjanjuk's attorney and testify.
- Both Levin and Shaked think this is a spur-of-the-moment rash decision.
- Levin: "We do not see fit to rule upon this application at this stage."
- Mr. Demjanjuk is asked to step down.
T011642 - Sheftel: "We had 4 witnesses planned for this week, 3 of them have testified, one the court decided to dispense with, ..."
- Other witnesses from abroad were not prepared to come during the Christmas holidays.
- [W.Z. The above implies that we missed the testimony of one witness on Monday, Dec. 28, 1987.]
T011643 - Levin: "We will consider such an application [for additional witnesses], and if we respond in the affirmative, we will set the date for that testimony. In any case, at this stage, we regard the testimony of the defense or the stage of bringing forth witnesses as having been completed."
- "We also reserve the right for the defense to complete its rogatories abroad."
T011646 - Sheftel protests the timetable that Levin has set: "... I have looked and seen that in the Kastner case, which was only one third of this scope, there was a break from August 19th to September 19th (195?) which is one full month , when there were 130 prosecution exhibits, and 15 defense exhibits, and less than fewer than than 3000 pages of transcript."
- [It is interesting that Sheftel would be so familiar with the Kastner case, who was accused of deliberately assisting the deportation of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz in 1944. -- see UKAR]
T011649 - Sheftel: "Now there is another point, since Mr. Gill raised the point he had asked for a visa to Poland, and the son of the accused asked for a visa to Poland, and he too was refused. I apparently will have to go to Poland, and."
T011650f - Sheftel asks that the summations be postponed from January 18, 1988, to mid-February.
- Shaked supports the application.
- Levin postpones the summations for only one week to Monday, January 25, 1988.
T011652 - **** END of official defense testimony and of Vol. 20 ****
Submission of Documents; T011653 - 11722; 1988/01/11; Vol. 21
[1988/01/11, Tue.; T011653, Vol. 21; Documents]
[Top] [1988/01/11] [Bottom]
T011653f - Submission of documents
- Nun/137 = pp. 116-7 of Fedorenko case re Mrs. Radiwker testimony
- Nun/138 = memo of Bernard Dougherty, Nov. 16, 1979 re Otto Horn interview
T011654 - Prosecution would not agree to submission of "OSI letter of 1980 to the Soviet authorities, requesting documents on Trawniki ..."
- Nun/139 = August 1986 copy of letter from Shimon Peres to Armand Hammer requesting Trawniki ID card
- Nun/140 = Dec. 11, 1986 reply of Armand Hammer to Shimon Peres.
T011655 - Agreed that in Fort Lauderdale, Florida trial of Fedorenko, the distance between Turowsky and Fedorenko was 22 feet.
T011656 - Agreed that Albert Leiter found that, in the staple holes of the Trawniki ID photo, the ink is of the same type as the Russian writing in tav/149.
- Leiter will not be coming to testify for the defense.
T011657 - Agreed to submit at a later date "Israel's request to Soviet authorities to make available Trawniki documents, if any, and the reply to it."
T011657f - There are 8 further documents at issue:
- (1) [T011658] List of 20 survivors of the Treblinka camp living in the U.S. who could not identify Demjanjuk
- (2) [T011663] A document on Alfred Billitz from the archives of the United Nations (obtained by the Israel Foreign Ministry upon Sheftel's specific request), which indicates that Billitz was the real Ivan. There are 57 names of people associated with Treblinka in this UN file #78/53 (or 7349/P/G/1367), which was compiled and sent to the UN by January 15, 1948.
- [W.Z. Very likely associated with Nurnberg War Crimes Trials.]
- (3) [T011671] A May 18, 1980, OSI document (similar to tav/79 instructing Israeli police how to carry out identification procedures) written by OSI attorney Robbie [Rodney?] Smith to director Allan Ryan outlining the internal directives of the OSI as to how identification procedures should be conducted. The defense received the document "about 3 weeks ago" from unofficial sources.
- (4) [T011675] 20 pages of telephone directories from Australia, U.S., France, Canada where the name Demjanjuk or similar to Demjanjuk appears.
- (5) [T011678] The 1960 Ginzburger statement making reference to Munzburger who makes reference to Ivan being the sole operator of the gas chambers in Treblinka from summer of 1942 to October 1943 and later joining the partisans in Trieste. Earlier, Sheftel had objected to Shaked submitting it.
- (6) [T011680] 1983 deposition of Streibel, where he says that he cannot remember having signed such a document, that he has never seen such a document before, that he would have to see the original to confirm his signature, and that it is inconceivable that he would have signed it without a date of issue.
- The deposition is archived with a notary public in Hamburg, but Streibel died in 1986 and his widow will not permit the notary to release the deposition.
- (7) [T011686] Two letters from the "OSI going back to 1980 to receive from the Russians similar documents similar to the Trawniki document".
- In light of the receipt of tav/222, 223, 224 on August 9, 1987, it is an illustration of how the Soviet Union is toying with the courts in the West.
- (8) [T011688] Gideon Epstein's testimony at the Cleveland denaturalization trial in 1981, where he admitted that he gave his expert opinion based on non-original signatures of Teufel and Streibel (2 each).
T011690f - Shaked responds:
- (1) [T011690] Two typewritten pages of 20 Treblinka survivors with no heading obtained illicitly by defense. "... it's not signed." "There is only a list of names with the dates."
- Sheftel: "... in August 1986 this document was made available to Mr. O'Connor by the OSI."
- "It was given to Counsel Broadley ... at the time the [FOIA] was submitted."
- (2) [T011697] The UN file or Billitz file is "indictments against criminals who might potentially be found in the future." "... based on articles in the Bulletin of the Glovna Commissia ..."
- Levin suggests, rather than just the statement by Finkelstein, the whole file should be submitted, and will allow Sheftel to comment later.
- (3) [T011704] With respect to the OSI directive of May 18, 1980, Shaked says that this postdates the identification procedures in Israel. Levin says that Radiwker and Kolar received direct instructions from OSI as to how to carry out the identification procedures.
- (4) [T011705] Shaked won't object to telephone directory.
- (5) [T011706] Munzberger says when he "got to Treblinka the larger gas chambers were being built", which implies October-November, 1942.
- (6) [T011708] The xerox copy of the Streibel deposition which Sheftel showed Shaked does not have Streibel's signature. Sheftel says that Streibel's signature is on a separate sheet of paper, since "there's no room for a signature on that deposition."
- Levin: "But you don't have it."
- (7) [T011709] The OSI requests for information about Trawniki documents are two cables including a thank you from Haig [U.S. Secretary of State?]: "Your assistance is appreciated."
- The third memo [to which Shaked objects] is a "suggestion that a cable be sent to the Soviet Union requesting other documents, etc."
- (8) [T011710] Levin: "As to Epstein, we don't need an answer."
T011711 - Levin: "Well, that Ivan was a Ukrainian, we've got plenty of proof of. And Bilitz is not a Ukrainian ..."
- [It is mandatory to Levin that Ivan be Ukrainian; so Bilitz and Sauer are out and Marchenko is in!]
T011713 - Levin re Billitz UN file: "This seems to be part of the hundreds of thousands of similar complaints lodged with the UN."
T011715 - Levin rules:
- (1) (list of 20 names) - accepted,
- (2) Billitz by itself - not accepted; but will accept the whole file if Shaked/Sheftel agree,
- (3) OSI internal directives - not accepted,
- (4) phone lists - accepted,
- (5) Munzburger - accepted,
- (6) Streibel deposition - not accepted,
- (7) OSI cables to Soviet Union - not accepted,
- (8) Epstein U.S. testimony - not accepted,
- such that
T011720 - Nun/141 = list of 20 Treblinka survivors who did not identify Demjanjuk.
- Nun/142 = telephone pages with names similar to Demjanjuk.
- Nun/143 = Munzburger 1960 statement concerning Ivan with partisans in Trieste.
T011722 - In response to Sheftel's request for more time, Levin rules that the prosecution will commence summing up on January 25, 1988, and will assess the requirements of the defense at that time.
There are always tiny bits of information which come out in these transcripts. It seems that Levin, Shaked and Sheftel are all playing the same game to ensure that their version of the "facts of the Holocaust" are not compromised. It was interesting to see Levin insist that "Ivan" must be a Ukrainian and Sheftel paving the way for Marchenko by submitting the Munzburger testimony that Ivan joined the partisans in Trieste.
T011722 - **** END of submission of documents on Jan. 11, 1988 and of Vol. 21 ***[Top] [Next]